<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1571</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/23/99 9:56:28 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, December 24 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1571<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re:  Aslan<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: Sac'to? (Was Re: SF Trav game)<BR>
re: Hiding Education<BR>
Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
re:  Christmal Carols for the Modern Mentality<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Temp Sign-off<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: England...<BR>
Re: THUDDD 9 Results/THUDDD 11?<BR>
Re: England<BR>
Re: England<BR>
Re: England<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:37:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Aslan<BR>
<BR>
>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
>Subject: Aslan (no longer Re: England)<BR>
<BR>
>Clear something up for me, please.  The Aslan male <BR>
>has a territorial imperitive...they need land.  Okay,<BR>
<BR>
>but how *much* land to they really need?  Would a 40 <BR>
>acre wood be enough, or do they need a tract the <BR>
>size of Rhode Island?  Would ownership of an entire <BR>
>moon, a tract of land on a vacuum world, or a 100 sq <BR>
>km space habitat be acceptable?<BR>
<BR>
It's directly related to size of the Aslan's male<BR>
equipment.  The smaller the equipment, the larger the<BR>
tracts of land.  Some Aslan males are interested in<BR>
really huge tracts of land, if you know that<BR>
reference.  <BR>
<BR>
Human males have a similar behavior.  There is<BR>
generally an inverse relationship between the sizes of<BR>
grav speeder and male tackle.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:40:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>Ahhh, the famous "Red Herring" class. Built at Snark <BR>
>enterprises using the best Maguffin drives. I <BR>
>especially like the "Goose Pursuit" model.<BR>
<BR>
Let's not forget the Snipe Hunt class small craft.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:43:23 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gone for the holidays, and 1yr anniversary<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>>Take one 25 lb bag charcoal.<BR>
>>Soak with a couple liters LOX.<BR>
>>Drop match on it from a _distance_.<BR>
<BR>
>NOOOOOOOO!!! This is a Very Bad Plan.<BR>
>Take the charcoal, place a lighted<BR>
>cigarette/taper/whatever on top of it, then pour on <BR>
>the LOX from a remotely-triggered container.<BR>
>If you pre-soak the briquettes with LOX, they<BR>
>explode. One charcoal briquette soaked in LOX has <BR>
>explosive power roughly equivalent to a stick of<BR>
>dynamite.<BR>
<BR>
Cool!  Ditzie will love it!  <BR>
<BR>
But then, she has battle dress armor and I don't, so<BR>
I'm staying away from her barbecue.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:49:02 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>Subject: <BR>
<BR>
>There's a book out there called "The Tommorrow File"<BR>
>whose author I can never remember, which also has <BR>
>that sort of feel to it.<BR>
<BR>
Lawrence Sanders.  This book is quite good.  His use<BR>
of language is almost on a par with umm ... er ... the<BR>
guy who wrote Clockwork Orange.  <BR>
<BR>
In the Tomorrow File, bureaucrats talk about wasting<BR>
taxpayers' love (i.e., money); people look forward to<BR>
using each other (having sex) because such an<BR>
opportunity is a profit (any good thing).  <BR>
<BR>
Sanders also wrote The Anderson Tapes, a funny but<BR>
tense movie about a criminal who becomes the head of<BR>
security of a large apartment building and then, with<BR>
his mates, burglarizes it.  Sean Connery plays the<BR>
lead in the movie version.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:49:21 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Sac'to? (Was Re: SF Trav game)<BR>
<BR>
The best in New England is coming up in late Feb 2000. It will take place in<BR>
Andover, MA and this is the 14th consecutive year. You can get all the info<BR>
at http://www.totalcon.com with schedules and events listed. There isn't ANY<BR>
Traveller scheduled to be played right now but I am good friends with one of<BR>
the founding fathers (Mark Dowdy) and have participated in every convention<BR>
for the last ten years. It has grown to rank about second in size in the<BR>
U.S. If you are interested then send me an email at thomharr@mediaone.net<BR>
and I'll certainly do my best to get a table added. Mark owes me a favor or<BR>
two. He has kidnapped me a number of times to help out when I show up. I do<BR>
gopher work and things for the convention and I have GM'd and written a<BR>
number of modules for AD&D, Battle Tech, Mech Warrior, Twilight 2000, Merc<BR>
2000 and of course Traveller that have been played at the con. I also won<BR>
"Best Role Player" for two different modules. Lots of fun for all. They also<BR>
have huge stacks of Out Of Print (OOP) stuff for sale in the vendor's area.<BR>
Check it out, I'll be there with my dice bag. BTW, that dice bag almost<BR>
requires a wheel barrow to haul them all around now. ;)<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 5:47 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Sac'to? (Was Re: SF Trav game)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 12/23/99 at 12:49 AM,  Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >Hell, I'm in Milpitas (close enough for a road trip), and Todd's in<BR>
> >Stockton.  Ya' never know!  You should come out to BayCon next Memorial<BR>
> >Day weekend.  Seems to be shaping up as a major West Coast TML get<BR>
> >together.<BR>
><BR>
> Tying this thread to "the US is really big" thread...it's tough for us to<BR>
> all get together.  Those that are west have a problem getting east and<BR>
> vise versa.  Heck those of us southeast have a problem getting to the<BR>
> upper midwest.<BR>
><BR>
> What we might want to do is pick out several regional cons for us<BR>
> Traveller types to concentrate on?  As a suggestion BayCon on the west<BR>
> coast, GenCon in the midwest, maybe DragonCon in the south and another ??<BR>
> in the northeast.  That way we could be sure of having two or three good<BR>
> Traveller games at a con we might be able to attend.<BR>
><BR>
> What do you think?<BR>
><BR>
> Eris,<BR>
>     who has never been to a con, but might give it a try if he<BR>
>     *knew* he'd get a good game of Traveller out of it.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:58:37 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Hiding Education<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
"Three bowls of Double-Frosted Chocolate Bombs and <BR>
I'll be hyperactive and incoherent all day!" <BR>
<BR>
- --Calvin, to Hobbes, in front of the tv on a Saturday <BR>
morning <BR>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
"Is it working?"  - Hobbes<BR>
"Yup, no brothers or sisters yet!" - Calvin<BR>
<BR>
I really miss that strip...though I'm glad the author ended<BR>
it when he decided he was done.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:00:49 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
<BR>
On 12/23/99 at 08:34 PM,  "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>"Just some good ole Droyns...Never mean any harm..."  <ducks> __<BR>
<BR>
Been in trouble with Grandpa, since the day they were born!<BR>
<BR>
<running for cover><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:14:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
<BR>
ROFLOL!<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 11:00 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 12/23/99 at 08:34 PM,  "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >"Just some good ole Droyns...Never mean any harm..."  <ducks> __<BR>
> <BR>
> Been in trouble with Grandpa, since the day they were born!<BR>
> <BR>
> <running for cover><BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
> -- <BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:26:49 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Christmal Carols for the Modern Mentality<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:58:25 -0500 (EST), Glenn Goffin<BR>
<gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
<BR>
>>These are to traditional tunes; it shouldn't be too<BR>
>>difficult to figure out which ones...<BR>
<BR>
>>Christmas time is drawing nigh,<BR>
>>Snowflakes drift down from the sky.<BR>
>>Angels we have heard on high<BR>
>>Tell us to go out and BUY...<BR>
<BR>
>I consider Tom Lehrer songs to be traditional tunes.<BR>
<BR>
Guilty as charged, for those particular lines (and for the<BR>
ripped-off lines in "Hark, the Herald-Tribune sings") - but he<BR>
never finished them off.  I did...<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:19:41 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
>>Sounds a lot like Rollerball, alright, but Rollerball itself was based on<BR>
>>a short story called "Rollerball Murder", by William Harroson, first <BR>
>>published in 1973;<BR>
><BR>
>A few corrections:  The novella is titled "The Rollerball Murders, it's<BR>
>Harry Harrison.<BR>
<BR>
(SFX: game show buzzer) Wrong.<BR>
<BR>
The original short story, "Roller Ball Murder", by William Harrison, was<BR>
first published in the September, 1973, issue of Esquire magazine. In 1974,<BR>
the publisher William Morrow & Company published a collection of Harrison's<BR>
short stories under the title of Roller Ball Murder; it was reprinted in<BR>
paperback in 1975 by Warner with the cover title Rollerball, presumably to<BR>
tie in with the movie, which was in current release at the time. There are<BR>
a total of 13 stories in the book; I have a copy of the paperback edition.<BR>
The title is currently Out Of Print.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:22:30 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
>>Sounds a lot like Rollerball, alright, but Rollerball itself was based on<BR>
>>a short story called "Rollerball Murder", by William Harroson, first <BR>
>>published in 1973;  Harrison also wrote the movie screenplay. As for<BR>
>>cyberpunk, many point to John Brunner's "The Shockwave Rider" as the<BR>
>>first cypberpunk book; like "Killerbowl", it was published in 1975, so<BR>
>>which came first is a toss-up. :)<BR>
><BR>
>Really?  "Shockwave Rider" as cyberpunk?  Hum....  I wouldn't have made<BR>
>that connection, but I can see it.  <BR>
<BR>
Actually, "cyberpunk" wasn't coined until about the time of William <BR>
Gibson's novel Neuromancer, but there are elements in The Shockwave<BR>
Rider that would later become identified with cyberpunk SF.<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:28:51 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy<BR>
<BR>
On 12/23/99 at 11:14 PM,  "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>ROFLOL!<BR>
<BR>
>> On 12/23/99 at 08:34 PM,  "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com> said:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >"Just some good ole Droyns...Never mean any harm..."  <ducks> __<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Been in trouble with Grandpa, since the day they were born!<BR>
>> <BR>
>> <running for cover><BR>
<BR>
Thank you. Thank you, very much!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If any of my PBEM folks want to explain what lead to "Cory's Nuts Roasting<BR>
on an Open Fire" I'll post the lyrics.  However, I<BR>
personally, *refuse* to attempt an explanation.  <g><BR>
<BR>
Elvis...uh, I mean Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:29:12 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
>> Eris asked:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Didn't Gateway buy the rights to the Amiga a couple years ago?  If so did<BR>
>> they bury it or do they plan to do anything with it?<BR>
<BR>
Then, Jory Earl wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yes they did, but Microsoft pressured them to bury it.<BR>
<BR>
Monopoly power at work.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:42:21 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:06:34 -0500 (EST), Kenji Schwarz<BR>
<schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> The US *is* big. But Russia is *huge*. The main part of the US is 4<BR>
>> time zones across. Russia is *nine*. Maybe more, I'd have to check. <BR>
<BR>
>Eleven, I'm pretty sure.<BR>
<BR>
Yes - but it was a full twelve before Ukraine, Belarus, and the<BR>
Baltics cut loose.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:56:56 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Jory said:<BR>
>Yes.  I had an Amiga500 back in 1990.<BR>
<BR>
 I still have one. Sitting (mostly unused) on another desk at home, across from<BR>
the PC. Is that a problem?  ;-)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 16:00:17 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks-<BR>
<BR>
Thomas wrote:<BR>
>I remember when 20meg HD's for an Amiga were nearly $1000.<BR>
<BR>
Mine was AU$500, my dad bought it, and its only just starting to crap out now,<BR>
mostly due to underuse.<BR>
<BR>
 - Hyphen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 16:09:21 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Temp Sign-off<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Well, that 's it for a while, signing off 'till late next week (or next century,<BR>
whatever)...<BR>
<BR>
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:24:25 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
Really?  What all do you have for it, would you sell, and for how much?<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 12:56 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Dear Folks -<BR>
><BR>
> Jory said:<BR>
> >Yes.  I had an Amiga500 back in 1990.<BR>
><BR>
>  I still have one. Sitting (mostly unused) on another desk at home, across<BR>
from<BR>
> the PC. Is that a problem?  ;-)<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
> of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
> position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:25:50 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: England...<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: England...<BR>
...<BR>
>>>I believe that most Germans (civilian and military) <BR>
>>>died as a direct or indirect result of aerial <BR>
>>>bombardment.  The USA bombed during the day,<BR>
><BR>
>>  That should be wildly inaccurate, unless the losses<BR>
...<BR>
>You may be right.  At least the figures probably exist<BR>
>for the Second World War.  Did the German army or the<BR>
>civilian population lose more people?  More civilians<BR>
>died as a result of bombing, but more German soldiers<BR>
>died from the usual variety causes in the Eastern<BR>
>Front than anywhere else.  <BR>
<BR>
  Two million civilians vs 4.5 million military; at a wild guess<BR>
~80% of the violent civilian deaths were bombing related, and<BR>
military deaths from strategic bombing would be a few % at best<BR>
(but significant in several respects).<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:41:06 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 9 Results/THUDDD 11?<BR>
<BR>
Congradulation to Black ICE on being promoted to<BR>
Assistant Coordinator for THUDDD 11.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
Do I hear any volunteers for ACFTHUDDD 12?<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:<BR>
> "Jason T. Barnabas" wrote:<BR>
> > Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:<BR>
> > > When will the results of THUDDD 9 (Lab Ship) be posted?  I'm not an<BR>
> > > entrant, but I would like to see the results.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Me too!  I'll see if I can't shake out a couple of hours to<BR>
> > prepare the info.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe this weekend.<BR>
<BR>
> > > Also, what proposals are there for THUDDD 11, other than my<BR>
> > > proposal for a TL-15/GTL-12 commerce raider?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > If no one objects, we will be continuing with our ship's<BR>
> > boats in THUDDD 11.  The next one will be a design for<BR>
> > a modular cutter.<BR>
><BR>
> Personally, I'd rather design some kind of warship.  Although I've<BR>
> already posted one proposal, overall I'm flexible about size, mission,<BR>
> and TL.<BR>
><BR>
> What would be the parameters of the modular cutter design?  (After all,<BR>
> we can't decide on a design competition without some details.)<BR>
><BR>
> What do the rest of you think?<BR>
<BR>
Since there have been objections raised (both publicly<BR>
and privately), I'm going to assign the job of deciding what<BR>
the parameters for a commerce raider should be to Black<BR>
ICE.  The rest of you feel free to chime in and help Black<BR>
ICE out.  Black ICE, when you get the text of the THUDDD<BR>
11 announcement completed, let me know and I'll<BR>
announce them and post them to the web.<BR>
<BR>
Do you accept?<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:47:34 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
>Subject: Re: England<BR>
...<BR>
>> >Not many. OTOH how many wars have the Germans killed sh*tloads more Brits<BR>
>> >than the Brits killed Germans? Two this century, for starters.<BR>
>> <BR>
>>   At a wild guess, Bomber Command alone may have killed more in WW2<BR>
>> than the UK itself lost; the numbers for WW1 won't be so cut & dried, but<BR>
>> the same result should occur, even without blockade effects.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm not quite sure how you'd get the same result in WWI, after all it <BR>
>ths the Germans who went in for city bombing in that war.<BR>
<BR>
Refers to "Brits killed more Germans than the reverse", not bombinp per se.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:48:31 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: Re: England<BR>
...<BR>
>ISTR the Dresden Firestorm killed more people in a night than both the<BR>
>nuclear attacks on Japan combined.<BR>
<BR>
  Quite possibly by a good margin, too - it depends on whose figures<BR>
you use/what you want to prove :(<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: England<BR>
...<BR>
>The Tokyo Firebombings killed more than the nukes I think. Pretty easy to<BR>
>drop incendiaries on wooden buildings really muck things up.<BR>
<BR>
  Yep; supposedly this was still a sensitive topic in the mid-`80's?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 18:55:11 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
Date sent:      	Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:07:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From:           	Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
This is way off topic and I apologise in advance, but this<BR>
is just plain wrong.<BR>
<BR>
> >From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
> >Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> >>If that's a typical attitude, it's no wonder someone<BR>
> <BR>
> >>(i.e., the USA) has had to bail your country out of <BR>
> >>two major wars in this century.  <BR>
> >  Form a queue, you rebel swine; as usual, the Empire<BR>
> <BR>
> >and Commonwealth had saved the silly buggers before <BR>
> >you guys even woke up from your nap<BR>
> <BR>
> Empire and Commonwealth?  Weren't they starting to<BR>
> teach Japanese in the public schools in India and<BR>
> Australia by 1941 so that their children would have<BR>
> some chance to get ahead in the new world order?  <BR>
<BR>
In a word, no.<BR>
<BR>
> The colonial forces did not even slow the Japanese<BR>
> advance into the parts of Asia that they conquered<BR>
> (nor did U.S. forces in the Philippines).  India was<BR>
> saved by geography.  Japanese supply lines through<BR>
> China and Burma were too long and too easily<BR>
> interrupted to make an invasion of India realistic. <BR>
> Australia was likewise too far, with too much water<BR>
> and too many American warships in between.  <BR>
<BR>
Not true. India was not invaded until 1944 because it had<BR>
no place in the Japanese strategic plan in 1942. Even if<BR>
they had, it is extremely unlikely it would have succeeded.<BR>
Australia was not saved by too much water and too many<BR>
US ships. The Japanese did not invade Australia because<BR>
they could not spare the 12 divisions they considered<BR>
neccessary to take it (weither those 12 divisions would<BR>
have in fact been sufficent is another matter entirely). In<BR>
1942, the USN would have been utterly incapable of<BR>
stopping a determined Japanese thrust on Australia,<BR>
and both the Japanese and US knew it.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> (Politics and stupidity:  Not letting Guderian finish<BR>
> off the British forces at Dunkirk, but holding him<BR>
> back so the Luftwaffe could practice dive-bombing;<BR>
> failing to try to destroy the Royal Navy during the<BR>
> Battle of Britain; failing even to attempt to seize<BR>
> the North Sea; not even attempting to invade Britain<BR>
> (which would have necessitated neutralizing the Royal<BR>
> Navy); and opening the front against the Soviet Union<BR>
> before defeating Britain.)<BR>
<BR>
Take a look at a map. Measure the distance from Norway<BR>
and France to the Orkneys. This is why the Germans did<BR>
not attempt to attack the Home Fleet. Any German invasion<BR>
of Britian would have failed because they could not<BR>
neutralise the Home Fleet beforehand. Likewise any attempt<BR>
to gain control of the North Sea was also doomed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species who's females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1571<BR>
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